My 406 rant
27 May 2004 08:48 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wren_kt7ozI posted something on the bj spoilers board yesterday, and then I thought I'd put it here as well.
It was in response to Danny's wonderful 406 recap and is basically my reaction to the slap, and to what followed.
Three things stood out for me. All concerning the gathering at Deb's house and its aftermath.
The first is that IMO there's no question Brian was right. No one who has watched a love one die of AIDS or any other painful lingering illness would dispute that in dying the way he did, Vic dodged a bullet. What struck me however, was the effect that Brian's words would have had on the three positive people in the room.
Rodney ... well, we're not going to see much more of Rodney, I guess.
Hunter ... might not be ready yet to join the dots ... he's still freaking over the fact that it was the medicine that was supposed to keep Vic alive that contributed to his death (aided, one would think, by all the high fat food Deb loves to cook). But Ben ... Ben would pick up on exactly what Brian was saying. And it would play into all his own fears.
And I think that part of the issue with Ben's 'jealousy' over the whole Hollywood thing is that he fears that for him time is running short; that perhaps he isn't going to be able to write another book. (And, of course, if this is part of his problem, then later when Mikey gives him the computer, that is almost like a taunt which may also explain in part his reaction to that.)
The next thing was Deb's reaction. Not just the slap ... but throwing Brian out. I'm not liking Deb much at the moment. ITA with you completely on how her so-called compassion has its roots in very selfish motives. Vic's death, in fact, is another classic example of her making the whole thing about her. It's not about the fact that Vic has died. That he has lost his life just when it was really opening up for him again, with a new job, new lover, new home, and that everyone has lost someone they loved. It's about the fact that she'd been a bitch to him before he died and feels guilty about it. And then she takes the whole thing out on Brian of all people - the most vulnerable of her little circle.
And there's a pattern here that I find increasingly objectionable. S3 Mikey says something horrible and truly unforgiveable out of spite and malice and Brian hits him and Brian gets thrown out. S4 Brian says something that is absolutely true out of (ITA with this) the best of intentions and Deb hits him and Brian gets thrown out. I'm very very tired of Brian being everyone's emotional punching bag, always the one to blame. Tired of it.
And that brings me to the third point that I know is not going to be popular. I appeciate what you said about Justin showing his independence, and all that. And I know that Brian had to go off alone to pick up the doctor to find out about the lump.
But I was seriously pissed off with Justin. If in that situation someone had hit my partner and thrown him out of the house I'm damned if I would have gone back in there and made nice with them. I would have stuck with my partner. Not a case of 'my partner right or wrong' ... but because Brian hadn't done anything wrong, anything to deserve Deb's reaction, and he was hurt by it. Damned if I would have left him alone right then! Let alone to go back into that woman - unless it was to give her a good piece of my mind and tell her to get over herself, that she wasn't the only one hurting and grieving and she'd hurt one of her 'sons' badly and made him feel like shit.
But then I would have gone off after my partner. That's when I would have honoured the 'commitment' Justin talks about later. Because Brian needed him right then. And did his Brianesque best to let him know that. And Justin pulled away.
When you think about how that must have played into Brian's psyche, especially coming on top of what Deb did, it's not so damned surprising that he wasn't ready to make himself even more vulnerable later by sharing his fears about the lump and the operation and all that it meant in terms of his self-image.
Because I think that how Justin behaved at that moment had an impact on Brian, and not a good one. I think it made him feel that Justin's love is conditional, that it still does depend on him behaving the way Justin wants him to behave, and that when he's not 'perfect', Justin withdraws from him. I think it contributes to his belief that Justin will leave him. And I think it makes absolute sense that, scared and alone, Brian will try to hide his vulnerability for as long as he can, and once he can't do that any longer, he'll make a pre-emptive strike and try to lessen the pain of Justin leaving, by at least being the one was in control of when.
IMO Justin's failure to stand by him at that moment at Deb's hurts Brian and impacts really heavily on what is going to happen in the next few episodes.
All of which, by the way, does not mean that I don't understand why Justin wanted to stay and grieve for Vic. That was what he needed to do, and Brian would be the first to tell him to get his needs met. But Brian needed him right then; I think Brian really needed Justin to choose to support him. And he didn't.
And so things will roll out maybe differently than they would have if Justin had gone with him to Babylon and been around immediately after that fateful blow job.
Just MO of course.
And thanks again, Danny for such a detailed, thoughtful, and thought provoking recap.
I want to be really clear that this is not a 'slap Justin' thing. It's not 'Justin as the evil twink'.
Nothing of the kind.
I adore Justin. (And in his earlier scenes in this episode he's just a delight.)
It's just that I really do not understand what he does.
If someone bitch-slapped my partner, the person I love, and threw him out of the house, damned if I would be doing anything but going with him.
There is absolutely no way on this earth I would have gone back in there and made it seem that I was okay with him being treated that way.
Made it seem like I believed he deserved it.
Made it seem like I felt he was a bad person who deserved to be slapped and thrown out because he was honest, and said what any rational human being would have known for truth.&
Said it not out of malice, but to try to help Deb with her grief, to put things in perspective.
Imagine if Deb had slapped Justin ... would Brian have been okay with that?
If she'd slapped Lindz, would Mel have walked back into the house?
Why was it okay, even with Justin, his damned partner, for her to do that to Brian?
Fuck that!
IMO Justin should be ashamed of himself that he didn't support Brian in that situation.
Ashamed!
And as for the 'he felt he needed to support Deb' line - stuff that!
Deb had lots of people there looking after her ... Brian, as usual, had no one.
Not even Justin.
That, IMO, simply isn't right. I was really disappointed in Justin in this scene.
And yes, I know it was all a plot device to get Brian on his own to Babylon, but ultimately, everything's a plot device.
This one was badly handled, off screen by the writers and on screen by Justin.
And all I can say is ... I pity their (the writers') partners, if they believe that this is an okay way for a partner to behave. Because it sucked. Big time.
And that's my 406 rant.
.
It was in response to Danny's wonderful 406 recap and is basically my reaction to the slap, and to what followed.
Three things stood out for me. All concerning the gathering at Deb's house and its aftermath.
The first is that IMO there's no question Brian was right. No one who has watched a love one die of AIDS or any other painful lingering illness would dispute that in dying the way he did, Vic dodged a bullet. What struck me however, was the effect that Brian's words would have had on the three positive people in the room.
Rodney ... well, we're not going to see much more of Rodney, I guess.
Hunter ... might not be ready yet to join the dots ... he's still freaking over the fact that it was the medicine that was supposed to keep Vic alive that contributed to his death (aided, one would think, by all the high fat food Deb loves to cook). But Ben ... Ben would pick up on exactly what Brian was saying. And it would play into all his own fears.
And I think that part of the issue with Ben's 'jealousy' over the whole Hollywood thing is that he fears that for him time is running short; that perhaps he isn't going to be able to write another book. (And, of course, if this is part of his problem, then later when Mikey gives him the computer, that is almost like a taunt which may also explain in part his reaction to that.)
The next thing was Deb's reaction. Not just the slap ... but throwing Brian out. I'm not liking Deb much at the moment. ITA with you completely on how her so-called compassion has its roots in very selfish motives. Vic's death, in fact, is another classic example of her making the whole thing about her. It's not about the fact that Vic has died. That he has lost his life just when it was really opening up for him again, with a new job, new lover, new home, and that everyone has lost someone they loved. It's about the fact that she'd been a bitch to him before he died and feels guilty about it. And then she takes the whole thing out on Brian of all people - the most vulnerable of her little circle.
And there's a pattern here that I find increasingly objectionable. S3 Mikey says something horrible and truly unforgiveable out of spite and malice and Brian hits him and Brian gets thrown out. S4 Brian says something that is absolutely true out of (ITA with this) the best of intentions and Deb hits him and Brian gets thrown out. I'm very very tired of Brian being everyone's emotional punching bag, always the one to blame. Tired of it.
And that brings me to the third point that I know is not going to be popular. I appeciate what you said about Justin showing his independence, and all that. And I know that Brian had to go off alone to pick up the doctor to find out about the lump.
But I was seriously pissed off with Justin. If in that situation someone had hit my partner and thrown him out of the house I'm damned if I would have gone back in there and made nice with them. I would have stuck with my partner. Not a case of 'my partner right or wrong' ... but because Brian hadn't done anything wrong, anything to deserve Deb's reaction, and he was hurt by it. Damned if I would have left him alone right then! Let alone to go back into that woman - unless it was to give her a good piece of my mind and tell her to get over herself, that she wasn't the only one hurting and grieving and she'd hurt one of her 'sons' badly and made him feel like shit.
But then I would have gone off after my partner. That's when I would have honoured the 'commitment' Justin talks about later. Because Brian needed him right then. And did his Brianesque best to let him know that. And Justin pulled away.
When you think about how that must have played into Brian's psyche, especially coming on top of what Deb did, it's not so damned surprising that he wasn't ready to make himself even more vulnerable later by sharing his fears about the lump and the operation and all that it meant in terms of his self-image.
Because I think that how Justin behaved at that moment had an impact on Brian, and not a good one. I think it made him feel that Justin's love is conditional, that it still does depend on him behaving the way Justin wants him to behave, and that when he's not 'perfect', Justin withdraws from him. I think it contributes to his belief that Justin will leave him. And I think it makes absolute sense that, scared and alone, Brian will try to hide his vulnerability for as long as he can, and once he can't do that any longer, he'll make a pre-emptive strike and try to lessen the pain of Justin leaving, by at least being the one was in control of when.
IMO Justin's failure to stand by him at that moment at Deb's hurts Brian and impacts really heavily on what is going to happen in the next few episodes.
All of which, by the way, does not mean that I don't understand why Justin wanted to stay and grieve for Vic. That was what he needed to do, and Brian would be the first to tell him to get his needs met. But Brian needed him right then; I think Brian really needed Justin to choose to support him. And he didn't.
And so things will roll out maybe differently than they would have if Justin had gone with him to Babylon and been around immediately after that fateful blow job.
Just MO of course.
And thanks again, Danny for such a detailed, thoughtful, and thought provoking recap.
I want to be really clear that this is not a 'slap Justin' thing. It's not 'Justin as the evil twink'.
Nothing of the kind.
I adore Justin. (And in his earlier scenes in this episode he's just a delight.)
It's just that I really do not understand what he does.
If someone bitch-slapped my partner, the person I love, and threw him out of the house, damned if I would be doing anything but going with him.
There is absolutely no way on this earth I would have gone back in there and made it seem that I was okay with him being treated that way.
Made it seem like I believed he deserved it.
Made it seem like I felt he was a bad person who deserved to be slapped and thrown out because he was honest, and said what any rational human being would have known for truth.&
Said it not out of malice, but to try to help Deb with her grief, to put things in perspective.
Imagine if Deb had slapped Justin ... would Brian have been okay with that?
If she'd slapped Lindz, would Mel have walked back into the house?
Why was it okay, even with Justin, his damned partner, for her to do that to Brian?
Fuck that!
IMO Justin should be ashamed of himself that he didn't support Brian in that situation.
Ashamed!
And as for the 'he felt he needed to support Deb' line - stuff that!
Deb had lots of people there looking after her ... Brian, as usual, had no one.
Not even Justin.
That, IMO, simply isn't right. I was really disappointed in Justin in this scene.
And yes, I know it was all a plot device to get Brian on his own to Babylon, but ultimately, everything's a plot device.
This one was badly handled, off screen by the writers and on screen by Justin.
And all I can say is ... I pity their (the writers') partners, if they believe that this is an okay way for a partner to behave. Because it sucked. Big time.
And that's my 406 rant.
.
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no subject
Date: 26/5/04 06:13 pm (UTC)(1) Deb losing Vic was a lot worse than B getting a slap that B *knew* Deb didn't mean. (Not saying it's right...believe me, I'm disappointed that B's "mother figure" would do something like that. And a slap is malicious and unjustified regardless of what it "meant".) J figured that at that moment, D needed more support and B could take care of himself and wouldn't want someone to pity him. Also, B loves Deb and would want her to have support regardless of slapping him.
(2) J knew that B would just be getting his dick sucked all night in the backroom by anonymous guys. And I honestly think that B wanted to be alone...and J realized that. B wanted to forget about his partnership, his friends, rl, etc. and slip;) into pain management mode.
(3) B forgave Mikey for saying those horrible things about J in S3. It pisses me off to no end that B and Mikey went back to being such good friends so quickly. But they did. And if B can handle someone he cares about being horrible (and the shit M said *wasn't* even true) to J then I can forgive J for comforting Deb after doing something horrible to B. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm just sayin'...
(4) CowLip thought it would have more of an impact if B was alone in the final scene and Babylon.
Just my $.02. You made a lot of great points that I agree with...that's why I feel it could've gone either way and a case could be made for each way.
Erica
no subject
Date: 27/5/04 02:30 pm (UTC)Certainly agree that C/L wanted Brian at Babylon alone. Just think it was a clumsy way to achieve that.
I guess what I was trying to say is that whether Justin let Brian go off alone to go into pain management mode or whether he went with him isn't really the point for me.
The point is, to me, that by going back into that house, Justin made it seem ... to everyone, including Brian, that for some reason it was okay for Deb to do that to Brian. Okay for her to take out all her self-anger and guilt out on Brian. (Because all Brian really said was, given his illness, there were worse ways Vic could have died.) And, I'm sorry, but I don't think it was okay. I will never look at Deb the same way again. Justin going back in there condoned what she did and said that it was justified and okay. And that is what I don't understand.
As for how Brian sees Deb's slap, I don't think he does 'understand', I think he just accepts that this is the way his life is, the way it's always been ... people he loves treat him like shit because he somehow doesn't deserve any better. He has no choice but to accept it, because it's all he's ever known. People treat him well when they want things from him, but the rest of the time ...
And about Brian forgiving Michael for saying those things about Justin, the two cases aren't really parallel. Brian might have been a bit slower to forgive, if Michael had slapped Justin right in front of him, and said those things to Justin. Michael didn't say them to Justin, though, or not in Brian's hearing, he said them to Brian. He forgave Michael, because it wasn't Justin who was hurt by them, it was him. And him being hurt, like I've said, is just something that Brian has always had to accept. Especially from the people he loves.
The message that Justin gave to Brian was that he's part of that pattern. That, once again, Brian has given his love to someone whom he can't count on to really defend him, really get his back. What Justin said to him, by going back into that house, was "even though you did nothing wrong, it's okay for you to be abused, and mistreated, because, basically, you don't deserve better".
But Brian's history of abuse and its long term affects aside, I guess I tried to think what I would do if I had been in that situation, and I can't even imagine quietly going back into that house that my partner had just been thrown out of and behaving as if what had been done to him was okay. Someone slaps my partner and I'm either in their face about it, or out of there. Given the circumstances, I would be prepared to cut Deb enough slack to just get out of there. But that's as far as it would go. Damned if I would just behave as if what she'd done was okay no matter how much I might respect her grief for Vic. And doubly, trebly, damned if I would let my partner believe that I thought it was okay.
And that, IMO, is what Justin did.
And I believe, whether it's ever mentioned again or not, that what he did has ramifications for how Brian sees their relationship.
Especially coming on top of all the pink posse bullshit when Justin constantly pushed him aside, and away, and ignored Brian's needs and his fears to pursue his own little agenda.
(Still love him to bits ... just saying ...)
no subject
Date: 26/5/04 06:56 pm (UTC)with you, Wren.
I know most people won't, but then I'm used to having a slightly (?)
minority opinion in my comments. Funny how a lot of people have actually
come around to agree with me about the Ted/Blake fiasco -- and I think
even more will in later eps.
And just to add -- I think this is one of things that will remain in Brian's
mind later on. I've seen the screeners for 407 to 409 and Brian's actions
in them (I won't detail) makes perfect sense, especially when he feels that
he's constantly being left to face things alone, even by his partner! I felt
the same way during the Posse eps -- Justin's priorities were elsewhere.
Perhaps he felt that he had a good reasn to shut Brian out and push him away
again and again, but then to expect him not to remember such behavior later is
naive.
no subject
Date: 26/5/04 07:39 pm (UTC)things I hated about this episode...
6. Debbie slapping Brian and then kicking him out of her house. No WONDER the guy is totally emotionally fucked...
9. I'm not happy Justin went back to Debbie's house after Brian was kicked out. I know Justin is being his own person this season, but god damn it, Brian is Justin's family and was wrongfully booted.
The more time that goes by, the worse it is (to me) that Justin went back. Without dwelling on the merits of the slap -- you do not leave your partner in this situation.
I'm totally with you on this one.
LeAnn
no subject
Date: 27/5/04 02:49 pm (UTC)I just cannot imagine myself walking back into that house and effectively saying to Deb and everyone else that it was okay to do what she did.
Cannot imagine it. And, like you, the more I think about it, the more inconceivable it seems.
no subject
Date: 27/5/04 02:45 pm (UTC)mind later on. I've seen the screeners for 407 to 409 and Brian's actions in them (I won't detail) makes perfect sense, especially when he feels that he's constantly being left to face things alone, even by his partner!
I absolutely agree with this. To me, the argument that Brian doesn't mention it, so it can't have affected him, is meaningless ... Brian never does talk about his feelings ... does not mean he doesn't have them.
And I can't see how anyone could not be affected by their partner condoning the abuse that Deb ladled out in this scene.
As you say ... I think it definitely plays into how Brian reacts later. It makes Brian even more self-protective. And IMO, makes a 'don't pretend you care now how I'm feeling' reaction not unreasonable.
no subject
Date: 26/5/04 08:20 pm (UTC)Just because Brian is used to the people close to him abusing him, and accepting that fact, doesn't mean that Justin should too. I remember a twink in season one who never tolerated such from anyone. Wish he was still around.
no subject
Date: 27/5/04 02:57 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly. That puts into words exactly how I reacted.
I was shocked even that he expected Brian to apologise. For what? Saying that having Vic go so suddenly and so painlessly was better than him going through the horrors that can come with this illness?
It's not Brian who should be apologising here.
Nothing in the world would have gotten me back into Debbie's house and her den of hypocrisy.
Me either.
l
Date: 26/5/04 09:20 pm (UTC)Second I am not surprised by Justin going back to the house I am very disappointed in the move though. Justin has habits and patterns on the show going back to season 1 and 2 and 3 that always come back.
I think the new one is pushing people away.
I kind of think Justin is taking Brian for granted, I think he knows that Brian loves him and now he feels that they are solid enough to not have to walk egg shells anymore.
Brian is a changed man he is a supportive love and a caring partner that did all but nailing the loft shut to warn Justin away from the posse.
Grrrr I want to say stuff but it will be mean.... Justin is kinda spoiled there I said it and he doesn't think about others to often unless it directly invovles him.
I think the more walking away he does and the more pushing Brian away he does draws our attention to his immaturity and the age difference.
I think for me this walking away from Brian puts 407-409 into more prospective then I thought I had.
Re: l
Date: 27/5/04 03:05 pm (UTC)I think the more walking away he does and the more pushing Brian away he does draws our attention to his immaturity and the age difference.
Yes, and the fact that he is so aggressively pursuing his right to be himself is also typical of his age.
But it was a little tiresome with the posse that he kept ignoring Brian's feelings, and it was much worse here.
But, like I've said before, I adore Justin.
I just wish in this one instance that the writers had given a little more thought to how they got Brian alone to Babylon. Because I don't think they meant it to come across the way it did. (Or did to me, anyway.) I think once more it was just clumsy writing. Either that or they wanted Justin to appear as a callous prick who doesn't care that his partner has just been physically abused and badly hurt for no reason except that Deb's an irrational cow. :shrug:
But I find it hard to believe that. So I think they were just intent on getting Brian to Babylon without Justin so that Shane could find the lump, and just wrote whatever it took to make that happen. Would not be the first time after all. Sad that it's usually Justin's character that suffers from their hell-bent intent to sacrifice character to a pre-determined plot line. Pod Justin ring a bell, anyone?