wren_kt7oz: (w_Wren)
[personal profile] wren_kt7oz
Okay. So I'm in Toronto and trying to type this on my iPad which for me is a form of torture.

We're having a great time and when I get home I'll post stories and photos and stuff.

But a question in the Fab / Randy panel followed by a couple of short conversations with Fab got my mind working. Can't remember exactly what the question was but it generated comments from both Fab and Randy that the relationship needed to happen and that their biggest problem with it was that it ended so abruptly. Also, that the reason for their breakup made it seem that Brian's cynicism about love and relationships was justified.

So here's my theory ...

How much better and more powerful would it have been if the reason for the breakup wasn't Ethan cheating with the roses guy, but Justin coming to realise that he wasn't prepared to be marginalised in his boyfriend's life by Ethan's decision to go back in the closet.

So given they had 7 episodes in S3 to wind up the Ethan arc and have BJ reunite in 308, here's how I think it could have worked.

301 Justin facing the choice he's made.

302 Justin facing the fallout and beginning to explore the realities of this new relationship.

303 Ethan gets the offer, Brian's "nothing noble" speech.

304 Ethan makes the decision to sacrifice his authenticity - and Justin's - to his career ambitions.

305 the "cousin" scene

306 / 307 Justin realising what's really at stake here and choosing to leave Ethan and reevaluate how he sees Brian based on contrasting not their level of romanticism or their level or type of faithfulness but on their whole moral and ethical structure.

Now that, I believe, would have made for a far more powerful story, but also a much more solid basis for their future (BJ's I mean) than just that Justin was mad because Ethan cheated on him

What do you guys think?

Date: 19/6/16 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chadmom.livejournal.com
Interesting and I agree. That would have been much more meaningful than Justin's tantrum and running back to Brian.

Date: 25/6/16 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Thank you. I think it would have been a greater validation of what Brian really offered in contrast to Ethan than a meaningless fuck with the fanboy.

Date: 19/6/16 03:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gaedhal.livejournal.com
I always thought the resolution was dumb. And then there
was no closure at all -- Ethan just disappears, after he and
Justin have been together…??? I guess no one could figure
out how long it had been. Weeks? Months?

I guess that's why Ethan keeps showing up in my fics somehow --
because that's how exes are -- they keep showing up! And Gay
Pitts isn't THAT big!

Edited Date: 19/6/16 07:04 am (UTC)

Date: 25/6/16 04:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Agreed. As for the timelines ... with CL who knows? Problem is that while one story line might have a months timeline, a parallel story might only have days. I mean there is a definite discrepancy between the time that passes for Justin in LA and the time that passes on the liberty ride. Not to mention .... well, you know better than I that there are numerous examples. I haven't quite recovered from their messing about with time yet. I guess when they had Brian say "It's only time" they weren't kidding.

Date: 19/6/16 04:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] guavejuice.livejournal.com
What do you guys think?

I was both, actually
In fact I don't think E/J story ended abruptly. This whole thing started as a rebound 'affair' for a very frustrated and hurt Justin back in 216. In fact as I see it Justin never meant to settle down with Ethan and he didn't see him as a life partner. He was just enjoyed the idea of being in a relationship with someone who expressed love more easily (or so he thought) brought him breakfast to bed, and all the other romantic aspects of love Justin craved but never got from Brian. However I think that throughout the arc Justin never really stopped loving Brian and in his mind I think he always compared Ethan to Brian. Also we see Daphne and few others trying to convince Justin that Ethan is not right for him. Justin was too euphoric to realize that at first but then he started noticing things that made him doubt himself as for the future of his relationship with Ethan. So to answer your question-which is something I've been thinking about myself for quite some time- I think the reason they broke up is not just the fact Ethan cheated (and didn't tell Justin... ) OR the reason Ethan was still in the closet and asked Justin to do the same but instead it was both those reasons. Ethan and Justin just didn't fit in more ways than one. THAT made B/J's reunion more poignant and meaningful obviously. It's not to say that their mutual journey post the reunion was flawless but that was the nature of their relationship and that's why I LOVE about them. They were able to stand together against all odds which is something Justin and Ethan never had to begin with.

Thanks for this post wren. Looking forward for more detailed con reports in insights from you my friend
Take care
Edited Date: 19/6/16 04:22 am (UTC)

Date: 25/6/16 04:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Thank you. I hope to post about the convention soon. At the moment I'm still trying to unpack. And to recover from Cabaret which was just amazing.

Date: 19/6/16 04:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] guavejuice.livejournal.com
I *think* it was both...

Date: 25/6/16 04:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Understood. I'm glad someone else occasionally has issues with trying to edit inside these text boxes.

Date: 19/6/16 08:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bksbracelet.livejournal.com
Oh yeah that does sound better and Brian would not in my mind always wonder if he was actually a second chance back up plan. With the Ethan debacle and the Rage movie being cancelled Brian was used as a back up plan

Date: 25/6/16 04:40 am (UTC)

Date: 19/6/16 09:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] connorblond.livejournal.com
Sounds a lot more grown-up. Which would have been nice, if Justin would have been a grown-up back then :)

Have fun in Toronto!!!

Date: 25/6/16 04:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Had a blast in Toronto, and loved seeing Randy in Cabaret in SF. Wish you could see it. It was brilliant and also profoundly disturbing, given the apparent rise of xenophobia and the related hate/ fear in the world at the moment.


Date: 20/6/16 01:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] plumsuede.livejournal.com
This makes a lot of sense. I'm glad I'm not the only one who still thinks about character arcs, lol.

Re: yes.

Date: 25/6/16 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Sadly, yes.

Got into a discussion in Toronto that made me realise how downright angry I still am over S5.

More than 10 years later I am still so passionate in my belief that CL threw away their chance to show that an amazing gay love story could have a happy ending.

Re: yes.

Date: 22/10/16 12:15 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
For me it's not ten years maybe two or three years but I'm still traumatized by season five (and I don't care how dramatic that sounds because of course I know they don't exist, it's just a tv show and yadda yadda). There are times I think I'm over it because as I said it is just a tv show but then I remember so many scenes from 308 - 414 where Brian and Justin were so in love, so close, truly partners, communicated so much with each other about what they are going through (brief but that is normal for a tv show, who would want to see them sitting there ten minutes talking about something like Brian is in debt, so of course they only talk briefly about it on-screen, I never understood the complain from many fans that they never talk about things and the only thing they do is fuck, I must have watched a different 308 - 414 then). And when I rememember these scenes I remember season five and could start crying.

I could rant for hours about it but I don't want to spam your livejournal with my angry / sad ramblings so I will just add a few major points.

I once read the statement from a viewer that he / she likes Justin's growth in season five. Growth? What growth? Getting a blow job in 505 in the VIP room and then drawing syphilis on the face of his partner in the same episode because casual tricking is suddenly once again a problem is growth? Not in my world. And that is just one example from Justin's allegedly growth. Justin even hasn't a real character anymore in season five. It's impossible to figure out who he is, what he wants. That is ok for season two Justin who is so young (he is still young in season five but not season-two-young), was lost / confused after the bashing and totally new in that romantic relationship thing (like Brian too).

For me growth is something like Justin's "You do what you have to do" speech. He came to Kinnetik, heard that Brian wants to go alone to Ibiza, has a little outburst, Brian has a little outburst too, Justin asked if he did something to piss Brian off and when Brian said that it's not Justin he asked Brian what it is and when Brian couldn't answer he realized that his partner is going through something he can't speak about at the moment and gave him the freedom to do whatever he have to do but made it clear that he is there when Brian comes back and that he loves him. THAT is growth for me because a long-term-committed relationship isn't always easy, isn't a walk in the park. There are times you don't understand your partner, there are times you have to give your partner freedom to do something you doesn't agree with and yadda yadda.

But all of that has nothing to do with NYC. There is nothing wrong with Justin moving to NYC and I have no problem to understand why he moved to NYC. Their season five relationship in general but also from 511 - 513 is the problem. I don't understand the happy raving about 511 - 513. We are really supposed to believe that Brian wanted to get married for himself? That arc has so many problems that I don't know where to start so I better don't start at all.

Date: 20/6/16 02:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cuivresdesaxe.livejournal.com
The cheating Ethan arc made no sense. He's just signed this big contract that forces him back in the closet. It's the first concert, his manager will be watching him like an hawk. And he's going to fuck a fan right there? Even if he doesn't care about Justin, why would he risk his contract?

Date: 25/6/16 04:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Exactly. And how did the roses boy get his address? Surely Ethan wouldn't have given it to him - he would have been trying to keep him well away from Pittsburgh and Justin. There was a lot that didn't make sense.

Date: 20/6/16 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emac66.livejournal.com
Great thoughts! I agree. It would've been a much more fluid ending to that arc.
As I see it, the cheating gave Justin an out. He was already dissatisfied with his decision to leave Brian, and the cheating gave him and easy way out. An excuse. I think also, your suggestion would've made for a deeper and more meaningful ending to it as well. While Ethan may have been content to go back in the closet, Justin had gone through so much and fought to get to where he was thus far to even consider it. It would've been far to hypocritical of him. He knows that his "family" would've been really disappointed in him, as well as disappointed in himself. A loss of integrity.

Date: 25/6/16 04:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Yes, exactly. And that threatened loss of integrity would have been the real contrast with Brian.

Seasons two through five

Date: 23/6/16 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ljtilford.livejournal.com
Pity that you and Gaelhal weren't contributing to the series. It would have made much more sense.

Re: Seasons two through five

Date: 25/6/16 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Thank you. I'd just like to have us writing the reunion script. Because I certainly don't trust CL.

Re: Seasons two through five

Date: 25/6/16 04:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Sorry, by "us" I meant the fandom ... or at least my favourite writers therein.

Gus comes to Michael's party

Date: 25/6/16 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hi, I remember reading a story where Michael throws a party and Gus comes with Brian and Justin.

Thank you

Re: Gus comes to Michael's party

Date: 26/6/16 01:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
It could be this one.

A Pirate's Tale (http://wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com/26563.html)


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